Episode 72: Will Personal Revelation Ever Contradict Prophetic Counsel?
To be honest, I didn’t know what to talk about today. We are in the home stretch of the school year, with the last day being the day this podcast comes out, and we all know how busy the last few weeks of school are! We have also made two trips to Utah in the last two weeks to help my daughter move out of the dorms and attend a family wedding. My husband broke his right foot at a youth activity a couple of weeks ago, which means he cannot drive. So, I have become his designated driver to and from work and church functions, which amounts to a couple of hours of driving each day.
That, coupled with the recent social media controversy surrounding Sister Camille Johnson’s BYU Women’s Conference talk in early May, and my brain feels like it is on overdrive right now. The end of the school year is always draining. Navigating controversy surrounding the Church is always draining. The two of them together have left me exhausted in all the ways. Trying to muster enough mental energy to write a podcast or even show up on social media has been a challenge for the past couple of weeks.
Some people might be surprised to learn that I am probably the most conflict and controversy-averse person you know. The chances of me wanting to share my opinion in a heated discussion about any topic is less than zero. I hate politics for that reason. I have seen arguments on hot-button political issues destroy relationships in my small circle of family and friends. And, in an election year like this, I would prefer to stay far away from any platform or discussion where I might see the relationship-destroying power of controversy at work.
Given this aspect of my nature, you can imagine my surprise and even horror when the Lord sent me straight to the controversial and contentious halls of Instagram to stand as a witness of Him. Discussions of faith are always controversial, and I honestly did not think I could do it because of how much anxiety and stress I felt at the mere thought.
But, three years later, here we are. And, little by little, I have developed skin thick enough to protect me from most slings and arrows of disgruntled online trolls. But, to be true, I still do not like stepping into controversy. It gets me every time and is, by far, the most stressful part of the work I do.
But, lately, it feels as if controversy, especially surrounding women and their role within the Church, is ever-present. When one massive wave passes, another may crash down at any moment. And, because my audience is mostly Latter-day Saint women, I usually feel compelled to address whatever controversy is brewing because it brings out all the arguments that have the potential to weaken or destroy faith. And, with people’s faith on the line, I cannot stay silent.
So, while I briefly addressed the latest controversy on Instagram, and am a little late to the party here, I wanted to share a few thoughts with my podcast friends, of which you are one. I pray they will be helpful.
In case you missed the social media storm, please allow me to quickly summarize the main points:
Sister Camille Johnson, our current General Relief Society President, spoke at BYU Women’s Conference on May 3. On her social media accounts, she posted this excerpt from her talk:
“I pursued an education, both undergraduate and a law degree. I was married midway through my legal education. I had my first son the year after I passed the bar. I had babies, and my husband and I loved and nurtured them while we were both working. It was busy, sometimes hectic; we were stretched and sometimes tired. I supported him, and he supported me. Family was, and still is, our top priority. My husband and I sought inspiration in these choices and in the timing. It was what we felt impressed to do. We were trying to let God prevail.
“From a financial and professional perspective, it would have made sense to put off having children until I was more established in my career. In letting God prevail, we sometimes do things that others can’t make sense of.
“I juggled pregnancy, having babies, nurturing children, carpool, Little League, Church responsibilities, being a supportive spouse, and my professional pursuits. It was a joyful juggle I wouldn’t change. We felt confident in our course because we were letting God prevail.
“Being a mother is my highest priority. It is my ultimate joy. That focus is consistent with my diligent pursuit of an education. We are commanded to seek learning—some of which comes in our pursuit of education and much of which comes in our orientation as daughters of God toward motherhood—where we learn to become godlike as we cultivate attributes of love, compassion, and patience.
“Whatever our personal circumstances, we are all part of the family of God, members of an earthly family, and preparing to be eternal parents.”
If you want to watch the full presentation, which I highly recommend, I will post a link in the show notes. (link)
Within hours, the comments section of that post blew up. Some people congratulated Sister Johnson for following her own inspiration instead of following the prophet. Others seemed genuinely confused about why she, a General Relief Society President, did not follow the prophetic counsel of her day. Others were angry, and some even blamed the Church for the challenges they faced because they followed the prophetic counsel for women to stay home with their children rather than seeking full-time employment.
After spending a few minutes reading comments, I had to pull myself way because it was all so heavy. I could feel the confusion and pain of so many women, and my heart went out to them. But I was also sad because of how much anger and blame were being thrown around in those comments, most of it directed toward the prophet and the Church in general.
The prophetic counsel that many felt Sister Johnson disobeyed included messages from Presidents Kimball and Benson, who were the prophets of Sister Johnson’s youth and early adulthood. Their messages were later affirmed by President Hinckley.
While there are many prophetic quotes to choose from, this one from President Kimball has made several appearances in this online conversation. It is from a 1977 fireside address in San Antonio, Texas, and was later quoted by Ezra Taft Benson at a fireside address in February 1987:
“The husband is expected to support his family and only in an emergency should a wife secure outside employment. Her place is in the home, to build the home into a heaven of delight.” (source)
It seems as if many people believe Sister Johnson went directly against this counsel. Was her situation truly an emergency?
Two years later, in October 1979 General Conference, President Kimball said this, which brings clarity to his prior statement:
“Some women, because of circumstances beyond their control, must work. We understand that. We understand further that as families are raised, the talents God has given you and blessed you with can often be put to effective use in additional service to mankind. Do not, however, make the mistake of being drawn off into secondary tasks which will cause the neglect of your eternal assignments such as giving birth to and rearing the spirit children of our Father in Heaven. Pray carefully over all your decisions.
We wish you to pursue and to achieve that education, therefore, which will fit you for eternity as well as for full service in mortality. In addition to those basic and vital skills which go with homemaking, there are other skills which can be appropriately cultivated and which will increase your effectiveness in the home, in the Church, and in the community.
Again, you must be wise in the choices that you make, but we do not desire the women of the Church to be uninformed or ineffective. You will be better mothers and wives, both in this life and in eternity, if you sharpen the skills you have been given and use the talents with which God has blessed you.” (source)
The principle behind both of these prophetic messages is this: prioritize motherhood and family. Do not allow outside pursuits to keep you from the vital work of raising children.
President Kimball did not say, “under no circumstances should women ever work outside of the home.”
Rather, he said: We understand some women must work. So, be wise in your choices.
President Hinckley reiterated that counsel in October 1996 when he said: “I recognize, as [President Benson] recognized, that there are some women (it has become very many in fact) who have to work to provide for the needs of their families. To you I say, do the very best you can. I hope that if you are employed full-time you are doing it to ensure that basic needs are met and not simply to indulge a taste for an elaborate home, fancy cars, and other luxuries. The greatest job that any mother will ever do will be in nurturing, teaching, lifting, encouraging, and rearing her children in righteousness and truth. None other can adequately take her place.” (source)
Again, the counsel was not for every woman to be a full-time homemaker. He recognized that very many women had no choice but to work to support their families. The principle he taught was the same as the prophets before him: prioritize motherhood and family.
This is consistent with the counsel in the Family Proclamation, which says:
“By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.” (source)
The general principle, again, is that fathers are to provide the necessities of life and mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. But the counsel does not stop there:
“In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help each other as equal partners.”
And, “Disability, death, and other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation.”
How do we know if our circumstances necessitate individual adaptation? How do we know if it is right for us to go to school or work full time? We ask God. We seek for personal revelation; which Sister Johnson did in her circumstances. The answer she received was to go to work, and she was confident in that decision because it came from God, even though it differed from what was normal or even culturally acceptable at that time.
Did she disobey prophetic counsel?
No.
She, followed President Kimball’s counsel to “pray carefully over all [her] decisions,” and to “be wise in [her] choices.”
She asked God what to do in her individual circumstances, and then she moved forward with faith. And, even though her circumstances did necessitate individual adaptation, she did not delay motherhood. She had her first baby the year after passing the bar, which was atypical for other women in her shoes. She lived the principle taught by many prophets, some of whom we quoted here today, to prioritize motherhood.
By her own admission, “Being a mother is my highest priority. It is my ultimate joy. That focus is consistent with my diligent pursuit of an education.”
From the outside looking in, it is easy to judge Sister Johnson’s choice. Did she really need to work to provide the basic necessities of life for her family? Was getting a job an emergency situation for her?
But who are we to judge? We do not know what her financial situation was like. But, please indulge me while I offer a perspective that you might not have considered:
Sister Johnson graduated from college with no marriage prospects, and had to decide what was next for her. I have no doubt she included the Lord in her decision to attend law school. In doing so, she was preparing to support herself. She did not got married until halfway through her law education.
I know for a fact that law school is not cheap, and most people cannot fund that kind of an education without taking on student loans. I know that because my husband is a dentist, and dental school and law school are similar that way. There was absolutely no way for us to fund dental school without taking on a significant amount of debt that we are still repaying nearly 20 years later.
Committing to a dental education meant my husband was committing to a career that would support the repayment of the debt we incurred. Choosing not to work as a dentist after attending dental school would not have been a financial option for us. He needed a higher paying job to afford to pay for the education that job required. And, like I said, we are still paying that off 20 years later.
While I do not know the details of Sister Johnson’s financial situation, it seems feasible to me, even likely, that she committed to utilize loans to pay for law school, knowing she would need to work to pay those back after graduation. Again, she was not married and had no children when she decided to become a lawyer, but that path required a significant financial commitment.
Perhaps, that was at least one reason why she and her husband both felt guided by God to take a path that would require her to work outside the home. But, even if that was not the reason, the bottom line is that we are not qualified to judge her intent, her inspiration, or her decisions. Those are between her and the Lord.
And, by extension, we are not qualified to judge anybody’s personal revelation. That is between them and God. And, while the root of this current controversy seems to revolve around whether or not is okay to disregard prophetic counsel in the name of personal revelation, again, Sister Johnson did not disobey the prophet. She followed his counsel to pray carefully and be wise about her choices.
We could all learn from her.
But will personal revelation ever contradict prophetic counsel?
Elder Dale G. Renlund spoke about this in October 2022 in his talk entitled, “A Framework for Personal Revelation.” He said: “Personal revelation rightly belongs to individuals. You can receive revelation, for example, about where to live, what career path to follow, or whom to marry. Church leaders may teach doctrine and share inspired counsel, but the responsibility for these decisions rests with you. That is your revelation to receive.”
The examples he gave include where to live, what career path to follow, and whom to marry are just a few of the things for which we can seek personal revelation. There are many more situations in which we would seek for divine guidance for our individual lives. Notice, too, that Elder Renlund said that Church leaders teach doctrine and share inspired counsel, but it is our responsibility to seek guidance from the Lord about how to apply that counsel in our lives.
He then adds clarity with this statement: “Personal revelation will be in harmony with the commandments of God and the covenants we have made with Him.”
In other words, the Lord will not inspire us to break the commandments or disregard our covenants. But He may lead us to apply prophetic counsel in different ways based on our unique circumstances.
Now, let me be really clear: I am NOT saying we should toss prophetic counsel aside. I wholeheartedly support and sustain the prophet as God’s mouthpiece on the earth. I believe following his counsel will keep us safe from the slings and arrows of the adversary.
What I AM saying is that the Lord may guide us to apply prophetic counsel in unique and personal ways that may appear to some as being outside of the “norm.” This seems to be the case with Sister Johnson’s decision to work outside the home. She was obviously following the larger principle to prioritize motherhood, that has been taught by prophets for generations, but that looked different for her than it did for other women.
I had a similar experience with the prophetic counsel to get out of debt. When my husband finished his residency, and we settled in Arizona to raise our family, I wanted nothing more than to get out of debt and follow President Hinckley’s counsel to “Be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.” (source)
As soon as my husband started working as a dentist, we purchased a modest home and set out to pay off our student loans as quickly as possible. We enrolled in a Dave Ramsey course, started our debt snowball, and began to make great strides in our debt reduction.
A few years into this process, both my husband and I felt strongly that we needed to move our family closer to the charter school my kids were attending. We had purchased our home in 2008, right before the bottom fell out of the market, which meant we were $100,000 upside down on our mortgage. Moving made zero financial sense, but both of us received a strong spiritual confirmation that we needed to move forward, despite the financial repercussions.
So, we rented out the house we could not sell (because we were too far upside down) and bought another home in the location we felt drawn to move. Because the housing market was shot, we could not charge renters the amount we owed on our mortgage each month. We were losing $1000 a month on that rental, which took a significant financial toll.
So, after living in our new house for 15 months, both my husband and I felt it was time to move again. The market had recovered significantly in that year, allowing us to sell both houses and buy another one. I did not want to move again, but the spiritual push both my husband and I felt was intense. The timing made zero sense. Our youngest son, then four years old, was having all sorts of health problems. He was in and out of surgery and was unable to walk for nine months.
But, we had a full price offer on the home in which we lived within one day of listing it and found another home that felt right, but it was outside of our budget. We could not ignore the feeling that this was our home, even though it did not make financial sense. So, we moved forward with the purchase.
We signed the closing papers on that house on the Friday before a holiday weekend, but were not going to get the keys until Tuesday because of the Monday holiday. Our entire house was packed and we were ready to start moving things in on Tuesday.
But, on Monday, we got a call from our realtor telling us the bad news. The investors who owned the house had gone over to get the last few pieces of furniture out on Monday before we got our keys on Tuesday, and the interior of the house was flooded. The water line to the fridge had come off and had been spraying for who knows how long, but there were inches of standing water covering ¾ of the interior of the house.
Luckily, because we had not yet taken ownership of the house, we were not responsible for the damage, but it took weeks to get everything fixed. There were lots of tender mercies along the way, but we finally moved in a few weeks later, and thought all was well. But, then, everything started breaking. During the first rain storm after moving in, we learned the roof leaked, and we had to replace the entire thing. Then, we had the rain storm of the century, which flooded the house from the outside in. We learned that our house was lower than the level of the street, so water could not get out once it got in. To fix that problem, we needed an elaborate system of drains and pumps to get water out to the street when it rained.
During the first year of living in that house, we spent over $100,000 on major repairs. Meanwhile, my husband’s dental practice slowed to a crawl, and we had to borrow from our savings and take out additional loans to keep the practice afloat. Our financial situation was precarious at best, which was a hard pill to swallow. Had we stayed in our first home, we would have avoided all of this financial mess and been well on our way to paying off those student loans. That is what the prophet counseled us to do, but we could not deny the Lord’s hand in guiding us into this mess. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the disconnect. Did the Lord not want us to follow the prophet’s counsel to get out of debt? He seemed to be leading us into deeper debt.
I spent many hours on my knees, telling the Lord this didn’t make sense, begging to move into something more affordable (and with fewer problems to fix), and asking Him if we had heard Him correctly when deciding to buy this house. “This doesn’t make sense!” I would often say. “We cannot afford this house. Are you sure this is right?”
And, over and over, He responded with these words: “Do you trust me?”
Of course, I would respond in the affirmative, adding the word “BUT” at the end.
“Yes, I trust you, BUT we cannot afford this house.”
That’s not really trust. That was me thinking I knew better than He did.
But, even in the middle of the mess, I felt so strongly that there was more in play than money, and that the Lord would provide for our needs, which He always has. And, eventually, I stopped asking if we had made the right choice, and started believing we did, even though I did not understand how this fit with the prophet’s counsel to get out of debt.
We have lived in that same house for 11 years now, and I cannot tell you why we felt so strongly that we needed to be here. It is probably a combination of lots of reasons. But I will tell you that we have still not fully recovered financially from the decision to move when we clearly could not afford to move. But I will also tell you that I know without question that the Lord’s hand was in that decision. I cannot deny His role in these decisions for a single second. We followed Him right into a financial mess, trusting in His omniscience when our understanding was limited.
While it has not been an easy road, I know it was the right one. And, while we have still not been able to pay off all of debts, and our story has been nothing like I would have imagined, I still believe the prophet’s counsel to get out of debt is absolutely inspired. And we are still doing our best to follow that counsel, even when our path to do so has not been as direct as I would have chosen.
While in the middle of this faith-stretching experience, this quote from President Monson became my lifeline:
“The wisdom of God ofttimes appears as foolishness to men. But the greatest single lesson we can learn in mortality is that when God speaks and a man obeys, that man will always be right.”
I have learned for myself that we cannot judge the validity of another person’s personal revelation, especially when it seems to contradict the norm. We simply do not know what the Lord is guiding them to do, and it is really none of our business.
Instead, we can, as Elder Renlund taught, let go of judgment and focus on receiving revelation “only within our purview and not within the prerogative of others.” This revelation will be in “harmony with the commandments of God and the covenants we have made with Him.” If it falls outside of commandments or covenants, we can know with certainty that revelation did not come from God. (source)
But, in regards to prophetic counsel, the Lord may guide us to apply that counsel differently, based on our individual circumstances. I have experienced that for myself, and it was soul stretching.
That does not mean I look for ways to get around the inspired counsel of our prophets. It does not mean that I listen to what they say and think, that does not apply to me, and I am not going to do it.
It does mean that I believe prophetic counsel and personal revelation go hand in hand, and that seeking revelation for how to apply prophetic counsel to our individual lives and circumstances is a vital piece of the puzzle. It means that my application of inspired prophetic counsel and principles might look different from yours, even if we both seek for the Lord’s guidance. It means that, as long as my personal revelation does not contradict commandments or covenants, and falls within my personal purview, as Elder Renlund explained, I can trust that the Lord knows more than I do, and will guide me to the places He needs me to be, even if they are outside of the “norm.” I have learned to trust that He will not guide me into situations that are not for my ultimate benefit or learning, or the benefit of learning of others.
I have learned that standing with Jesus Christ means trusting Him enough to follow Him into the darkness, even when I do not understand where He is leading me or why. He is at the helm of His Church. And, if we allow Him to be our captain, He will also be at the helm of our lives – leading each one of us down the individual paths He needs us to sail – the paths that will lead us and others back to Him.
Judging others’ paths is fruitless. Let’s focus instead on seeking for and following the personal revelation we need to become what the Lord needs us to be. And together, let us joyfully stand.
